Today we had the European elections… and for the first time I felt ashamed for my countrymen.
A hate spreading party as the PVV seems to be growing fast. I am so ashamed…. so ashamed….
Today we had the European elections… and for the first time I felt ashamed for my countrymen.
A hate spreading party as the PVV seems to be growing fast. I am so ashamed…. so ashamed….
That is democraty, freedom of speech
Power from the media and……
I don’t like PVV either. But, Wilders is the only one who calls some problems by it’s name. And when “normal” politicians fill their pockets and look away, someone like Wilders pops-up and gaines the simpathy of the majority.
Don’t let us be fooled bij Democraty. Hitler got his power through democraty. So did Berlusconi and so did Hugo Chavez….
In my opinion Wilders doesn’t calls the problem by it name, he just blames one group for all the problems and preaches doom.
Apart from that he is rude and an agitator.
Anyway, Simon Carmiggelt already said: “Two time hurray for Democracy, not three time, just two…” Meaning that Democracy is not perfect and can be misused, but it is the best we can get.
I don’t know. I don’t trust the Geert Wilders at all. And above all I think he cannot make true what he all says.
Sanne, I agree. He cannot. Pure populist.
Rob, Is that really true? I know from first hand what religion can do. Islam is a very young religion and the equasion with Catholism in the dark ages isn’t so far sought. I dont believe that religion should be mixed with politics. Especially not the islam with it’s sharia.
I think you have misunderstand me.
I agree that the politics and religion shouldn’t be combined.
I know rather a lot people who follow the Islam (through my work for example) and we discussed this subject quite often. It is just a very small, but fanatic group, that wants the Sharia is its true content in place. Most don’t want that all.
You can see it just as the Catholic church. A small group want everything the Pope says. Most not.
Extremism in religion should always be stopped. But for the biggest part of the Islam that is not the case. And so I don’t fear the Islam at all and I am convinced that the normal Islam can co-exist in all peace aside of other religions and those that don’t believe.
And yes, Wilders is indeed a populist. And concerning the Islam is he the person who pulled fully into politics. By claiming dumb things as that the Koran should be forbidden and other rather dumb things about the Islam (his laughable movie included). The influences some fanatic Israel/US groups have on Wilders show very clear.
People always talk about the Sharia, but never took a look at the “laws” of the Christian Old Testament. I wouldn’t want those to be active as well. And still there are Christian sects/streams would would be in favor of it.
Most Islamites I know don’t refuse to give me (as woman) a hand. They don’t expect me to walk some meters behind Rob and things like that.
Concerning the Sharia, the are many misunderstanding about it. And these days you only hear the bad things mentioned in it, while there are also very good things in it. A lot depends on what interpretation of the Sharia (and there are many) you talk.
And no, I am not in favor of the Sharia. But I always try to understand something in depth before I judge.
Oke, Rob and Marion, This is exactly what i mean. These things should be discussable.
It is not about judging. It is not about pointing fingers. That is Wilders greatest fault.
But in politics and media, many people are afraid to name things. Espescially if it is about religion, minorities and positive discrimination. And in my opinion, this is wrong.
The point that i am trying to make is that we must prevent history repeating.
Becourse if we look away and not discuss public matters openly, things go very very wrong.
Becourse of Wilders, this subject points to Moslims. But i also condemn the fact that Israel is enjoying imunity to any form of critisim and that the “Old” catholic and reformed churches are using thier old and very obsolete Rules and laws. In thier groups, churchlaw stands above political law.
This is not a discussion of being wright, nor am i right minded or extremist. I have moslim friends, Turkish, Maroccan, I have Cyrisch orthodox friends and family. I know jewes personally. And they all speak freely. But i have also seen influence of orginisations lik the grey wolves in close.
If the politicians in our government take the important matters of society serious, people like wilders would be laught at.
In my opinion you can discus almost everything, as long you show the respect that someone else holds another opinion.
Rob and I talked a bit about this before going to sleep. Although we think almost about this subject, we have our differences too :).
I agree with you that the government should be more involved with what happens really in our land. The “zorg staat” we once knew is almost completely destroyed. Mainly in my opinion by selling companies and organizations that were once government owned/controlled (“Ziekenfonds”, “PTT” and so on and on).
You make a remark about religion, minorities and positive discrimination. If I understand you well (and please correct if I don’t) I think different about this matters.
Religion is easy. Religion is for those who have chosen themselves to be involved and should not push it on to those that don’t follow that religion.
I do think that there should be room for tolerant religions (no matter which) in a society. It can make a society richer, even for none believers.
But as stated, politics combined with religion tends to cause problems.
In my opinion minorities need protection and/or care. Specially weak minorities. Only when a minority can develop and find its place within the society it can be really part of that society.
For instance, I think that the problems there are with Moroccan youth we have caused ourselves be letting one or two generations getting stuck between two cultures.
And having said that, I think that positive discrimination can be in some cases a good tool to create or restore balance (read well, I said some cases, not all cases).
You also mentioned The Grey Wolves. If The Grey Wolves caused problems, then The Grey Wolves should be dealt with. And not the rest of that society, country, religion or whatever.
It happens to often if a group causes problems (in whatever way) all are hold responsible. And that is not good in my opinion.
Hi Marion,
I agree with you about minorities. but they should not be overprotected and the subjects about it should not be treated as “heilige huisjes”. As an example, the Roma. they are a minority and protected by it. but their ways of living are above and beyond our laws. Why should they be treated different than any other normal “not minority” ?
As for Positive discrimination. In my point of view, discrimination is discrimination. Said that. In my opinion, there should be equality between people. As a human, there should be no difference whatever colour, religion, heritage and so on.
I see “positive” discrimination like driving a car. The driver is to busy with everything but driving the car. Suddenly the car drives with one wheel in the gras. The driver panics and overreacts by overcorrecting. Driving the car on the other lane, the driver has to heavily correct again, with a great chance of loosing the total control of the situation. (Positive discrimination equals here the overcorrecting which leads to more corrections and ends in loosing control of the situation).
As for religions, i agree with you. in my opinion. Religion is very personal. And should be treated as so.
I mentioned the Grey Wolves becourse they are directly linked to society, religion and community. Becourse there is no normal discussion about subjects like these, these groups can coexist without being noticed or without being given the nessecary attention.
With this, the limitation of short text shows. Words placed with a meaning, are read with “different” interpretation.
Maybe the african pirates are a better example. These people have been ignored for years after colonisation. After that they are exploited by large companies. And now, this thier only way for survival. Becourse if they succeed, they can live a better life. If they fail, they get cought and have a better life here in jail.
To give a conclusion. Politics overall with Wilders now can be compared with Driving the car and overcorrecting. Not taking action at the wright time and waiting too long will give problems. Like steering into the gras. The wright option is not to panic, and correct very slow, very little. Wilders is the driver overcorrecting.
a lot of people want instant solution. Direct approach. But doing this (pulling too hard on the steering wheel) will solve the problem for a very slow moment, resulting in much more corrections and loosing control.
Hello Patrick,
I agree on your statement concerning minorities. Of course only those minorities that need protecting and/or aid should get that. And most certainly they should never be above the law… OUR laws to be precise.
Concerning positive discrimination you mention exactly where the problem is. You say that everyone is equal to you. No matter religion, gender, heritage or what. And that goes for me as well.
But sadly for the world out there in many cases not. The most simple example? If I would be a man I would earn about 10% more for a job like this and only for the fact of gender (And no, I am not complaining. I am very happy with my income. It is just for the example).
If a Dutch man and a Moroccan man would go for a certain job. They have the same experience, same education, same social skills and so on and on, there is big chance the Dutch man will get the job (there are many examples available where the non-native person was better qualified and got not the job).
There are still areas of work where a certain gender is preferred (in both directions btw) and where there is no real reason for it.
When it comes down to age, there is still a lot of discrimination on age by job selections.
And so I can go on for some time.
If everyone would be really equal, then positive discrimination would indeed not be needed. But as said, that is sadly enough not the reality. Far from that even.
I cannot follow your comparison of positive discrimination with driving a car. Why would someone be overfocused or something like that. It is just a little push in the back, a helping hand and nothing more then that. I think (and know from experience with someone I know) that this person is a lot more open to change and willing to invest is his/her future. They well take the challenge given and from what I have seen in a very positive way.
I agree with you that groups as The Grey Wolves or the Somalian pirates need attention. But these are very delicate matters, because they easily explode is into worse situations. Kicking hard back and punishment are not always the right solutions.
And as pointed out yourself, the Somalian pirates is something we have caused ourselves (as so many of the problems with have currently). But many people refuse to see that.
To you comment of politicians as Wilders I have to agree and will even add that their solutions will indeed solve nothing and cause only bigger problems. As you already pointed out with a big chance of losing control.
What i am trying to say, and that concerns all subjects mentioned.
There should always be sought for solutions on the long turn and not short term. Short term solution are often easy, popular becourse of the quick result. But do not solve the problem. Like patch work.
I know the situation is far from perfect. But Positive discrimination is also patchwork. Women should earn as much as man in the same function. there should not be a differnce in job search if you are “dutch” or “moroccan” or man or woman. This matters should be solved. Not patching like offering jobs with statements as: We prefer woman or minorities. becourse with this, the problem is not solved. It is only fighting the symptoms. Hiding the real problem.
Positive discrimination (like discrimination) prevers some one (or a group) over another person (or group) without just course.
Of course these imbalances need to be solved. But when will that happen? It will be a very long time before we make even just a real step towards solving all this. Too long to do nothing in my opinion. And so I really think that positive discrimination can be a good tool to correct in some cases certain imbalances.
Anyway, I don’t think we will agree on this matter, which is of course not needed at all 🙂
Nope. it is not needed at all. Isn’t that a beautifull privilege in our little wet country :p
As i have said more often to Rob. These are great discussion to have at Markt 2 enjoying a beer or wine.