“Innocent until proofed quilty” was for me always the base of any justice system I believed in and stood for.
Lately I see changes around me I don’t like. I get more and more the feeling that things are changing towards that anybody could be a possible criminal or possible terrorist. Many measures are taken these days “just in case”.
Latest example of this is the idea of someone at Scotland Yard to collect the DNA of difficult children just in case they may do a crime in the future. So when you a bit out of controle when you are young (and remember, many of us were that as well) you will be already marked as possible criminal!
This is really going way to far. Not the children who are targetted here are a threat to our society, but the people who come up with ideas like this and try to push them through. They are the real threat.
As long you belong to the big majorty, all is okay. But if you are different or act different, then you are suspicious… For heaven sakes, you do something very strange as encrypting mail and files. You must be a wannebe terrorist if you do. Why else you should try to hide something? They never realize that it might be about privacy, things that only should be each of a person and the ones he or she trusts. And there is complete no need for a government or alike to have a backdoor to encryption software.
Innocent until proofed quilty! Nothing else then that…
But what if someone is suspect to have commited a serious crime? Then still innocent until it is certain he has done it?
Well,
There are many Fictional cases that show what can happen. 1984 and bigbrother are excemples. A recent good Film is V for Victory.
This all has nothing todo with safety but is pure controll.
I agree Patrick, but somehow the current situation starts to look more and more on 1984 or scenario’s alike.
And Sanne, to your question… basically, yes. Someone stays innocent until it is very certain the accused person is really quilty. But that doesn’t mean that in case of a serious crime someone who is with good reason suspected to be quilty can be taken into be imprisoned. But the person stays innocent until proofed quilty!
Playing the advocate of the devil here… what if a person is suspected of being able of doing a crime that brings a lot of mental and physical damage to a person. Something a rape?
Hmmm… you are always the Devil’s Advocate, Marion :P.
Anyway, how do you determine that someone is capable of something as rape? When a man (assuming the cassical man abuses woman-thing) loves to look at a good looking woman? Or when a man gives a woman a pats on her bum?
I love to look at a good looking woman… I gave you once a pat on your bum (and you deserved that one :P… and yes, I realize very well there is an big difference when something like is done by someone you know very well or by a complete stranger. It is meant as example)…
Or is a certain argressivity a reason? Or when a man cannot get a relation (I remember a girl saying this when I was still at school)?
My point is that I don’t think that there is a way to predict that someone will do something bad as rape… at least not in a reliable way.
So I return the question… That rape is disgusting and very harmful is no point of discussion, but would you want to punish someone on forehand for a crime he may never do?
I still have not forgiven you about that pats!!! I was so innocent ^_^
As advocate of the devil that was not my own opinion. I agree with you in this mostly. But I do wonder some times if we really could predict a serious crime and act before on that.
You and innocent? Hmmmm 🙂
Anyway, a scary thought your last reply. If a crime can be predicted then other things will be as well… and on those can be acted as well! Not the world I would like I think.
As a crime could be predicted, it should not be punished in advance. All actions should be taken to prevent it, take the reason/course away and help the criminal “to be” not to become the criminal.
It is not desirable to create a situation like in “Minority Report”
Okay, I will take over the role of Devil’s Advocate…
Patrick, we both are SF lovers. Am I right? If yes, then we know both the stories about altering time lines. Most famous example is that what would have become of Europe/The World when Hilter was stopped of killing himself and made him establish The Third Rich?
To our example… a woman gets sadly enough raped, but because of the sad happening in her life she develops herself to a person who does great work to make other women aware what they can do to defend themselves to such matters in their life.
So now this crime get predicted and prevented… and all the good work this woman would have done, will never happen….
I know I am walking a very small edge here, but I am strong believer in the free will of people. This kind of “preventing” this kind of events is complete opposite to the free will of people…
*coughs… I am the Devils advocate atm… Remember that*
Ah, you’re half right. And Yes, a very thin line indeed.
If it could be stopped before it happened in a caring way (not by punishment), There would be no need for this woman to help other women to defend them selves, becourse these events (rape in this case) would not occur.
Furhtermore, this woman could become a person who absolutly hates men in general. And by this fact, this event pushes her over the line to become “criminal” towards “innocent” people becourse of her negative feelings.
We are walking a paradox here 😀
I agree with you about free will and the fact that a human grow’s becourse of the bad things in life and reaches a stalemate in growth if everything goes well in life. But there are people with no conscience and/or no remorse. Giving these people free will is a very scary thought.
I don’t agree fully….
Does every victim of rape hate men per definition? I can tell you, that is not correct. Does every victim of rape pushes towards some kind of revenge? Again, no.
Further more, you are incorrect when you say when this woman would not have been a victim there would be no need to help others. We are talking one victim against many other (possible) victims of other criminals? Her not being a victims does not change that others may suffer this sad destiny.
The deeper line here… if you were (if it would be possible) to predict that someone will do a certain crime, what would stop other to do the same when… lets say…. that way do something in line of others political ways, religion way, financial ways… postive or negative.
Lets imagine, we can predict that Mister X in 5 years will proof that god doesn’t exsist. No discusion possible anymore… I think Mister X may not live those 5 years!
To you last line… who will judge on forehand that those with no conscience will commit a crime and should be taken out before… THAT is a scary thought, someone judges others on forehand without crime done… Today it is a crime. Tomorrow it may be political opinion, religion, race, sexual preference… or whatever.
The idea of preventing a serious crime as rape is very tempting. Very tempting even.
But for many crimes it is not that the person is always without conscience, meaning that a crimenal is not always the monster we want them to be, without feelings or compassion.
Ergo: It seems that most humans are very capable of doing the worst crimes, rape and murder included. It are only some small things in our mind that stops us from doing it. Talking about scary thoughts!
After talking with Rob about this I agee with him. Apart from the fact that we have no way to predict with 100% certainty that someone will commit a crime, it is too easy to be used in unwanted ways.
And that brings us back to the matter that Rob brought here to discusion. Innocent until proven quilty… Yes, I agree fully with that.
😀
That is not the point that i am trying to make.
I think, this could be a cool and fruitfull discussion for Markt 2.